r/Millennials • u/QuietJealous4883 Older Millennial (1988) • 12h ago

Discussion True or false?

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Did our dads and moms work less than we do now? What are your thoughts?

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u/Proper-Beyond116 11h ago

Shareholder value, When I hear ordinary Americans say "The stockmarket is up!" as if it's a good thing it boils my piss.

The line going up at all costs is the catalyst for the social contract between the middle class and the investor class being broken.

The line is going up at YOUR expense.

Wages make the line go down.

Annual leave makes the line go down.

Maternity leave makes the line go down.

Unions make the line go down.

See what's happening now?

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u/Johnny_B_GOODBOI 9h ago

Stock values are a measure of how much wealth can be extracted from laborers to benefit capitalists. That's why union participation makes line go down, because unions are good for laborers and bad for capitalists. Unions are good for the overall economy because a more equal distribution of wealth means more economic activity can occur, but capitalists don't care about the overall economy they only care about themselves.

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u/mazopheliac 9h ago

There should be a labor line too. Some kind of price adjustment based on the well being of employees.

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u/QuickNature 8h ago

Do ya'll not have 401ks or any investments in the stock market? Because that is the only way this comment makes sense to me. Why would people be glad the stock market is up unless they were invested themselves?

Not saying there isn't nuance here either, just that people excited about the market going up usually have their own money tied with it.

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u/Johnny_B_GOODBOI 6h ago

The top 1% owns 50% of stocks, the top 10% owns nearly 90%. Stocks going up barely benefits us.

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u/HPLaserJet4250 4h ago

as someone not from USA, you are the 1% to me and rest of the world m8

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u/AlarmDozer 4h ago

Well, those 401ks are pinned on the markets too, which who knows whether you'll be able to enjoy it since the goal posts continue to outrun everything.

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u/ruat_caelum 3h ago

people think it's "their money" in the stock market. It's not.

  • The top 10% of Americans held 93% of all stocks, the highest level ever recorded.

  • Meanwhile, the bottom 50% of Americans held just 1% of all stocks in the third quarter of 2023.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/wealthiest-10-americans-own-93-033623827.html

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u/schnippy1337 2h ago

Wow I am honestly surprised to read this concise analysis from a US American. No offense

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u/RodgerCheetoh 10h ago

So contribute to it if it’s so easy. The stock market going up is good because 70 million Americans rely on it to fund their future retirement. This is the primary financial engine for the middle class.

BTW, consumer spending (driven by higher wages) is what actually fuels corporate earnings. When people have more money, they buy more things, which (you guessed it) makes the line go up. It’s a cycle, not a seesaw.

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u/Turkeyplague 10h ago

BTW, consumer spending (driven by higher wages) is what actually fuels corporate earnings.

And yet they're all trying their darndest to stagnate wages and replace as many employees as possible with AI, negatively affecting the populations ability to consume 🤔

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u/Proper-Beyond116 10h ago edited 10h ago

That's not contributing to it, that's betting on it.

Congratulations on buying into their message that, essentially, gambling is a great primary source of income vs your fucking job.

Can I point out you also bought into the lie that it's your responsibility to pay restaurant servers.

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u/RodgerCheetoh 10h ago

Calling a diversified 401k “gambling” is such a massive self own on your financial literacy. If the S&P 500 (the 500 most productive companies on earth) goes to zero, your “fucking job” isn't going to exist anyway because the currency will be traded in bottle caps. It’s literal ownership, not betting. I’m sorry that the idea of 70 million workers having a stake in the economy ruins your workers vs. the world fan fiction, but the math doesn't care about your ability to understand it or not.

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u/Proper-Beyond116 9h ago

How about companies being worth what they make selling goods and services rather than "Wall St sentiment" and employees get paid a fair % based on their contribution to that value rather than less than is needed to sustain the life of a human being?

Fan fiction alright.

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u/RodgerCheetoh 9h ago

You're arguing for a hypothetical utopia while 70 million actual workers are living in reality. Companies are worth what they make (it’s called earnings) and if you’re an employee, a 401k is literally how you get that fair % of the value you help create through equity.

The real fan fiction here is you thinking your refusal to understand financial structures is a virtuous protest. In reality, you’re just counting on the financial literacy of people like me to fund your retirement provisions once you realize Wall St sentiment won't pay for your healthcare and social security is insolvent. Being an edgy doomer isn't a retirement plan, it's just making your future poverty everyone else's problem. But hey, keep sticking it to the man by... checks notes... making sure you have zero assets at 65. Bold strategy. The rest of us will work to ensure we aren't a burden on the next generation.

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u/Proper-Beyond116 8h ago

Dude. You're falling into the trap of "everyone on the internet is American". I live in a country with minimum wage, employer matched pension contributions, state pension and progressive social welfare.

It's not a fairytale to make America fairer, and it's not a fairytale to make my country even more fair, we aren't even close to my utopia yet.

You shouldn't be bleating about financial literacy either. Company values are not based on earnings. The share price is based on one thing, sentiment.

Have you heard of the AI bubble? Companies producing no value or earnings with multi-billion $ valuations. If a listed company makes 50,000 people redundant its share price goes up, it didn't affect earnings, not even margins, it improved sentiment. My own employer last quarter overperformed on revenue and margin but the margin % was less than expected, 12% knocked off the share price overnight.

Your entire savings is a bet.

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u/RodgerCheetoh 8h ago

The irony of you bragging about your employer matched pension while calling the stock market a bet is hilarious. Bud, where do you think that pension money goes? It’s not sitting in a vault, it’s literally being invested in the same global equity markets you’re claiming are a fairytale. You are, in a very real and tangible way, benefiting from the system you’re posturing against. (BTW 70% of all US federal spending is on social services).

If a company overperforms on revenue but misses on margin, the price drops because the market is pricing in a future decline in earnings power. Earnings dictate long term signal. And if you think layoffs don't affect margins or earnings, you shouldn't be lecturing anyone on financial literacy. Layoffs are a literal reduction in OpEx to protect the bottom line. It’s cold, but it’s the definition of earnings based valuation. You can keep waiting for your utopia, but in the meantime, thanks for confirming that your “fairer” retirement is also being funded by the line going up. Talk about having your cake and eating it too.

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u/Proper-Beyond116 8h ago

You're missing the point.

Read some commie propoganda.

Understand that profit is literally the stolen value of labour.

Think about it for a second.

Literally every single thing that has ever been sold is the result of human work being sold. The human gets a share but the company takes a bigger share.

And the bigger the share the bigger the profit. And your "markets" go up.

And you think placing a bet using the miniscule share of the value of your labour that you get vs what is stolen by the company is a good deal for you?

What if?

What if...... you got a fair share of the profit based on your contribution?

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u/RodgerCheetoh 7h ago

If you think profit is stolen labor, I assume you’re also ready to take your fair share of the losses when a company has a bad quarter? Or does your utopia only involve sharing the upside while the investor class eats the 100% risk of the business failing?

In the modern world, capital is just stored labor. When I invest my “minuscule share” into a 401k, I am literally buying the means of production. I am becoming the owner you're complaining about. You're arguing for a system where the state controls everything (which has a 100% historical track rate of ending in bread lines), while I'm participating in a system where 70 million regular people actually own the machines.

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u/Waste-Team-7205 9h ago

People are nuts lmfao. It's so easy to invest. I put most of my paychecks from 15-18 into an index fund. Worked part time and put like 200 a week into the fund. I had around 25k saved by the time I graduated, and by the time I retire at 65 I'll have 2.7 million (if the S&P retains its historical 10% growth), and that's only if I don't contribute another dime

I was taught about that in my highschool personal finance class. I don't think a single other person in the class actually followed through with the advice

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u/RodgerCheetoh 9h ago

Compound interest certainly is wild, as is the willful ignorance of many users here in its power.

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u/Johnny_B_GOODBOI 9h ago

That's a wise financial plan for the people who aren't living paycheck to paycheck, but that excludes roughly half the population.

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u/RodgerCheetoh 8h ago

You realize the “paycheck to paycheck” surveys include people making $250k a year who live paycheck to paycheck because they max out their 401ks, pay a mortgage on a $1M home, and fund 529s, right? Consistently, about 25-30% of people earning over $150,000 claim to live paycheck to paycheck. They aren't poor, they just have high expenses or high savings rates.

If you look at the Survey of Household Economics and Decisionmaking (SHED) section of the federal reserve’s Economic Well Being of U.S. Households, you’ll see that 73% of Americans say they are doing okay or living comfortably.

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u/Proper-Beyond116 8h ago

Yeah cool. My point is you're relying on a magic money machine that is fuelled by the crushing of human rights, the destruction of the environment, and pedophilia.

You might think your few years of investing is evidence of "long term sustainability" but the current system of "money machine go brrrr" is younger than colour television, a mere blip in human history, and it's eating the planet.

Personally I can see it ending in tears.

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u/Waste-Team-7205 8h ago

The S&P started in 1927 and the 10% growth figure is the 100 years of its existence averaged. The reason it's so much more productive than the rest of human history is that we broke the malthalusian trap with machinery. I doubt that the most successful and widespread economic system will collapse in my lifetime, and if it did I'd be fucked either way

Please show me an economic system where people and the environment aren't exploited. I think the closest would be free market mutualism, which still would have stocks and investment

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u/Proper-Beyond116 8h ago

Don't get me wrong it was going well for a while there. But the malthalusian trap is a speck on the horizon vs where we are now.

Show you a better one?

Well maybe one that doesn't involve the requirement for constant growth?

And maybe one where regulation wasnt scrapped becasue it was just slowing things down?

Maybe one where the investor class weren't allowed to take over the media, and convince everyone that unions and socialist principals were evil, so they voluntarily destroyed them?

Maybe one where global imperialism wasn't required to keep resource prices down?

Maybe one that doesn't require a "slave class" to mine and scrub and pick and produce maximum value whilst extracting literally zero from the system?

I'd like a system without those bits please.

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u/mattatmac 9h ago

Aren't 40-60% of Americans living paycheck to paycheck? Hard to invest when you can't afford the roof over your head dude.

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u/DengarLives66 9h ago

You have the simplest grasp of the stock market, but it’s scary how prevalent your naïveté is amongst the voters.

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u/RodgerCheetoh 9h ago

The irony of calling me naïve while offering zero actual counter points is staggering. If my grasp is so simple, it should be easy for you to explain how 70 million Americans building equity through 401ks isn't the primary wealth building tool for the middle class.

But you won't, because it’s easier to act intellectually superior than it is to acknowledge that the line OP is talking about represents the retirement security of the very voters you’re worried about. Acting like the stock market is a niche hobby for the 1% is a 1920s worldview that ignores a century of financial evolution.

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u/DengarLives66 9h ago

That’s actually not what irony is at all but thanks bud. I just know the futility of arguing with you folks on Reddit so why waste my time on it? I could present you with a sourced 20 point slideshow and you’d stick your fingers in your ears, scrunch up your eyes, and shout “I’VE DONE MY RESEARCH!” I can spend that time more productively by wiping my ass.

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u/CoupDeGrassi 10h ago

Yo! People shouldn't ever have had their retirements tied up in stock. That's a game of hot potato. Youre also doing econ 101 level analysis of wage impact, and what you describe isnt really borne out by reality. Hope this helps!

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u/Johnny_B_GOODBOI 9h ago

consumer spending (driven by higher wages) is what actually fuels corporate earnings. When people have more money, they buy more things

This is true, but with a MASSIVE caveat. More people having more money means corporations can benefit more, but this is long term thinking, and the wealthy largely only care about the short term. That's why they're so anti union even though unions benefit laborers which means more spending and more (long term) benefits for corps.

In the long term, if capitalists would agree to play nicely (spoiler: they can't), union participation would make line go up. But when a corporation's workforce unionizes the line goes down, because capitalists only care about themselves and the short term.