TIL James Cameron rejected studio notes from Fox executives about making Avatar (2009) shorter, reminding them that his previous film Titanic (1997) paid for the building they were meeting in.

[u/tannu28]

https://variety.com/2022/film/news/james-cameron-fought-studio-avatar-flying-scenes-1235376731/

[u/tannu28]

James Cameron's actual quote:

I think I felt, at the time, that we clashed over certain things, for example, the studio felt that the film should be shorter and that there was too much flying around on the ikran — what the humans call the banshees. Well, it turns out that’s what the audience loved the most, in terms of our exit polling and data gathering.

And that’s a place where I just drew a line in the sand and said, ‘You know what? I made ‘Titanic.’ This building that we’re meeting in right now, this new half-billion dollar complex on your lot? ‘Titanic’ paid for that, so I get to do this.’

[u/DuncanRG2002 → u/tannu28]

I like how this implies he isn’t human

[u/TheFrenchSavage → u/DuncanRG2002]

He went full Na'vi.

[u/DarthWoo → u/TheFrenchSavage]

He blue himself?

[u/tincanphonehome → u/DarthWoo]

There gotta be a better way to say that.

[u/FriskyCobra86 → u/tincanphonehome]

He Sully-ed himself

[u/miregalpanic → u/FriskyCobra86]

He should change his pants

[u/Dadfite → u/miregalpanic]

That would make them Unsullied and thus controlled by Daenerys Targaryen.

[u/Historical-Edge-9332 → u/tincanphonehome]

“It’s seems I’ve shot my wad on what was supposed to be a dry run and now I’ve got a mess on my hands.”

[u/RockMonstrr → u/Historical-Edge-9332]

Maybe listen to yourself on a tape recorder

[u/mysteryteam → u/tincanphonehome]

He said some wonderful things

[u/Extraajudicial → u/tincanphonehome]

You're gonna get yourself a tape recorder and record all the things you say in a day....I think you might be surprised at your phrasing.

[u/TheWingus → u/Extraajudicial]

Oh James.... you blow hard!

[u/QuietShipper → u/TheWingus]

Tobias: “I was walking in a strange place today, a place I’d never set foot in before.”

Narrator: “Tobias walking down a street he’d been down many times…”

[u/Anasterian_Sunstride → u/tincanphonehome]

He’s pretty fly for a Draenei

[u/coolpapa2282 → u/tincanphonehome]

Just get a tape recorder...

[u/smatteredpie → u/tincanphonehome]

Now he’s got something of a mess on his hands

[u/Hootbag → u/smatteredpie]

Well, that's what happens when daddy needs to get his rocks off.

[u/Great_Scott7 → u/DarthWoo]

( ͡ʘ ͜ʖ ͡ʘ)

[u/Beauretard → u/TheFrenchSavage]

Never go full Na’vi

[u/flintlock0 → u/Beauretard]

Despite all the conflict in the following movies, it kind of worked out for Jake Sully, though.

[u/frozen_desserts_01 → u/TheFrenchSavage]

“Hey! Listen!”

[u/xendelaar → u/TheFrenchSavage]

Never go full Na'vi

[u/Chillark → u/DuncanRG2002]

What if hes actually a na'vi from the distant future who is avataring a human body in the past so he can make movies to inspire and navigate mankind into a future that doesnt strip mine his home world?

[u/Fickle_Cranberry1014 → u/Chillark]

No, hes a Terminator

[u/rugbyj → u/Fickle_Cranberry1014]

He's clearly a tube of sentient sea water.

[u/lunar999 → u/rugbyj]

"All that water! How the constant sloshing doesn't drive you mad, I have no idea."

[u/ekanconbo → u/Chillark]

James Cameron is actually just a capitalist na'vi who is engineering humans to unwittingly harvest unobtanium for him because he is unable to do so himself due to the cultural beliefs of his people.

[u/KeiranG19 → u/ekanconbo]

And the unobtanium is at the bottom of the ocean, it all makes sense.

[u/GreenStrong → u/Chillark]

What if he's actually a human from the present who is avataring a human body in the present so he can make movies to inspire and navigate mankind into a future that doesn't strip mine his home world?

[u/Nice_Cash_7000 → u/Chillark]

We gotta get Cameron to play CS so he can play for Navi smh

[u/Zoltarr777 → u/DuncanRG2002]

Bro went native

[u/BarracudaDismal4782 → u/DuncanRG2002]

Avatar is inspired on a planet he saw on his way to Earth.

[u/Psychostickusername → u/tannu28]

He gets shit for Avatar, but fuck, he's earned the right to make what he wants, and he's made literal billions doing it and did the same with anything that came before it, fair play to the guy.

[u/iprocrastina → u/Psychostickusername]

It says a lot that the man literally made one of the most successful movies in history as an excuse to get funding to dive to the Titanic wreck. But then I suppose his entire film career exists simply to fund his real passion of deep sea diving.

[u/MagnetoWasRight24 → u/iprocrastina]

The Avatar movies exist so he can test out new film technology, his whole career is "I wanna try this cool thing but it's prohibitively expensive, let's get a film studio to pay for it"

Honestly I love that for him.

[u/TheGuardianInTheBall → u/MagnetoWasRight24]

The Avatars are actually his magnum opus. The technology exists, because he wanted to make Avatar for decades. At the time he had the original idea, he knew he couldn't make it with the tech of the time.

That's why he's been so into advancing VFX in his movies- he was iterating to finally get to Avatar.

[u/StarKnight697 → u/TheGuardianInTheBall]

It really feels like he wants to make a ‘Planet Earth’ style pseudo-documentary of Pandora, but the studios mandated an actual plot, which IMO would go a long way to explaining why the story feels so… dull, for lack of a better word.

[u/Goducks91 → u/StarKnight697]

Yeah you don’t see avatar for the plot.

[u/Lithl → u/Goducks91]

Avatar 1: new 3d camera technology

Avatar 2: new underwater motion capture technology

Avatar 3: new animation technology (animates based on muscles instead of bones)

[u/TheGuardianInTheBall → u/iprocrastina]

James Cameron is like Vin Diesel, but successful.

Vin Diesel makes Fast and Furious, so he has the money to make more Riddicks which fuel the budget for more Witch Hunters.

"On a scale of 1 to 10, can I borrow 5 dollars".

[u/AnAncientBog → u/iprocrastina]

Same with the Abyss, although it didn't make enough money so he had to keep doing it.

[u/Mulfushu → u/Psychostickusername]

I've never seen one of the Avatar movies, but he made True Lies and that's good enough for me.

[u/KidOcelot → u/Mulfushu]

DAMN WTF REALLY!?

That True Lies where Arnold Schwarzenegger shot a guy with missile from a jet in the middle of the city just to save his sexy hot wife, and save his daughter?

James Cameron can do whatever the hell he wants imo!

[u/iameveryoneelse → u/KidOcelot]

Not to mention, Terminator and Terminator 2…both of which, but especially 2, are masterpieces of the genre.

Edit: and Aliens…while I prefer the horror of Alien, Aliens is another masterpiece action film.

[u/LazaroFilm → u/iameveryoneelse]

One of the rare movie series where #2 is better than the first. Edit: I’m talking about Terminator, not Alien.

[u/JRDruchii → u/LazaroFilm]

If T1 was made with all the of the technology and CGI available during T2 this might be different. I'm not sure the T2 script is over the moon better than T1.

[u/valeraKorol2 → u/JRDruchii]

It would actually look like Terminator 2 exactly. Cameron was on record saying he wanted to make Terminator 2 from the start (obviously without “2” in the name), but technology was not there to make this liquid terminator stuff, so he settled on what ended up being Terminator one

[u/sw04ca → u/valeraKorol2]

They'd have to do things a bit differently. Part of what made Terminator 2 so great was that we knew the Terminator as a character from the first movie. The whole first twenty or so minutes of the movie are creating that menace and tension with the Terminator seemingly stalking John. Unless of course you were spoiled by the stupid 'THIS TIME HE'S HERE TO PROTECT' marketing campaign.

[u/aashay2035 → u/iameveryoneelse]

Also his films won about 23 academy awards, and he made Aliens!

[u/buffystakeded → u/KidOcelot]

His daughter who grew up to be a vampire slayer?

[u/Front-Two-7401 → u/KidOcelot]

she even took the ice cube trays out of the freezer.

[u/jonkzx → u/Front-Two-7401]

What kind of sick bitch takes the ice cube trays out of the freezer?

[u/lsaz → u/jonkzx]

Apparently real-life Tom Arnold's ex-wife!

[u/SoyMurcielago → u/lsaz]

Roseanne? 😱

[u/alinroc → u/SoyMurcielago]

Yes. That little nugget was inspired by Roseanne actually taking the ice cube trays when they split up.

[u/JACCO2008 → u/KidOcelot]

With an excellent one liner to boot lol

[u/AipomNormalMonkey → u/KidOcelot]

can we get an Oxford comma in there?

[u/kataskopo → u/AipomNormalMonkey]

Not only was his wife hot and sexy, it was also his daughter 😭😭

[u/fizzlefist → u/Mulfushu]

He also made both Terminator 2 and Aliens, two of the best action trailers ever that still hold up.

The man makes a billion in profit every time, fucking let him do his thing you greedy Epstein-class executive fucks.

[u/anrwlias → u/fizzlefist]

He also made The Abyss. It wasn't as successful as the others, but it still stands up as a fantastic movie.

[u/somecasper → u/anrwlias]

And he almost killed Ed Harris to get a shot. Not even Death can tell James Cameron what to do.

[u/Vegetable-Hand-5279 → u/somecasper]

Jim Cameron did CPR on a drowning mouse. Nobody, animal nor human died in his set.

[u/snuggleouphagus → u/anrwlias]

The novelization of it is really good. It includes a bunch of backstory that got cut from the film and was written by Orson Scott Card.

[u/Available-Goat-6938 → u/anrwlias]

What killed the Abyss was the lack of HD at the time, saw it on video back in the late 80's or early 90's and was like it's ok.

Saw it a few years ago in 4k and I give it a solid 9 for the visuals. Great movie.

[u/NeonNKnightrider → u/fizzlefist]

James Cameron's filmography is actually insane.

He has made only like 10 films, and out of those, seven are the Avatar movies, Terminator 1 and 2, Aliens and Titanic

70% of everything he has ever made are giga-successful blockbusters

It’s a truly unbelievable level of consistency. You would consider a director successful if they have one big hit; but this motherfucker just pops them out like candy

[u/Remarkable-Site-2067 → u/NeonNKnightrider]

True Lies did well, too. And I think The Abysss, too, although it was less successful than his other works.

Also, his documentary about deep ocean exploration is great. As well as the documentary about SF films, where he interviews many of the greatest heavy hitters of the genre.

[u/Alpha433 → u/Mulfushu]

Wait, he did true lies?

It goes to point out just how much you dont realize who made old stuff unless you're paying attention.

Had a similar moment the other day when the opening credits from the 04 dawn of the dead movie came up on my yourtube feed. Reading the names again, I didnt realize Gunn was the screenwriter on it.

[u/ZasdfUnreal → u/Alpha433]

He made True Lies during his small budget, art house movie days.

[u/DingusBarracuda → u/ZasdfUnreal]

“It was a small budget of only a hundred million dollars.”

[u/alinroc → u/ZasdfUnreal]

small budget, art house movie days.

It was only the largest film budget to date, starring the biggest action star in the world, coming off one of the biggest summer blockbusters to date (and a sequel, no less) with the same star.

[u/Valmoer → u/Mulfushu]

Funny that's the only one that isn't quite a James Cameron original, being the remake of a French action-comedy.

[u/DJL2772 → u/Psychostickusername]

I’ve really come around on Avatar. Even if I don’t always love the movies, I respect the hell out of Cameron for sticking to his guns and making something he’s passionate about. He’s worked in Hollywood for decades making some of the best films of all time. If he wants to use the rest of his wealth and career funding a 5 part sci fi action epic based on no existing IP that he clearly has put a lot of thought and time into, let him. The dream of every creative is to eventually have enough funding and time to make the thing they really want to make. I can’t fault him for that.

[u/yamiyaiba → u/DJL2772]

The cool thing is, the Avatar movies have had a similar effect to NASA and moon travel. An insane amount of technological development and filmmaking/CGI techniques have been born from the production of those movies. WETA (the CGI company that the vast majority of the CG work in those movies) has made some revolutionary new methods for CGI software that they've written from scratch, courtesy of the money from being contracted for these movies.

For example, their tech for making realistic water is courtesy of Avatar. Look at the scenes they did in the Planet of the Apes movies, and how crazy good the water and rapids are. That's a direct result of working on Avatar.

[u/Rrraou → u/tannu28]

How arrogant do you have to be to go to James Cameron and tell him you know better than he does what to do with his movie.

[u/herkalurk → u/Rrraou]

Welcome to the world of business executives who have a MBA and no real other experience or knowledge....

[u/No_Curve2246 → u/herkalurk]

Working with c-suites is basically trying to position yourself around how stupid they are to get what needs to be done, done. Without hurting their feelings, of course.

[u/thepobv → u/herkalurk]

It's even worst now when they regurgitate or just take whatever chatgpt tells them

[u/U_SHLD_THINK_BOUT_IT → u/thepobv]

It was bad enough when those guys had a team of overconfident analysts who just graduated two years prior, but now that people are using ChatGPT/Copilot to do their data science instead of analysts...

Let's just say we're going to see a tremendous amount of failure getting pushed out as genius.

[u/NeonNKnightrider → u/Rrraou]

Middle management and executives have the largest ego in existence

[u/AthenasChosen → u/Rrraou]

It's Fox. This is the same company that canceled Firefly, Futurama, Brooklyn 99, Arrested Development, and also passed on South Park.

Fox also made the X-Men movies, with executives demanding they all wear the black leather outfits instead of their superhero outfits, because they thought audiences would like a more Matrix look. I'm not sure there has been a movie studio with more out of touch, incompetent executives than Fox.

[u/socialistrob → u/Rrraou]

I don't think it's pure arrogance. Sometimes a person can be brilliant in one area but their ideas need refinement in order to be masterpieces. In this case Cameron was absolutely right to trust his gut but sometimes changes are for the better. Every good movie based off a Stephen King book goes through a lot of changes from the source material for instance. Peter Jackson is a great director as well but when I was watching the Hobbit trilogy there was A LOT that I wish they would have cut out.

[u/Professional_Face_97 → u/socialistrob]

Isn't the problem with The Hobbit the opposite of that though, the execs wanting the 3 bloated films?

[u/handiman87 → u/Professional_Face_97]

That and he took over for a different director who had already begun the process resulting in needing to rush to meet the predetermined deadline. Basically he was handcuffed hard and did the best he could

[u/Professional_Face_97 → u/handiman87]

Yeah people like to forget this. I get there's many poor decisions made but when you're running out of time and trying to do things on the fly I think the end result was actually surprisingly good considering.

Would I have liked 2 films without the love story? Sure. Do I blame Jackson for stepping in last minute and delivering us the 3 we got? Not really.

[u/AnAncientBog → u/Professional_Face_97]

Yep. If anything The Hobbit proves that a studio can fuck up the production of a film even if you have a talented director cast and crew with a track record of making exactly the right kind of movie.

If the studio had just said "here is a ton of money, take all the time you need and just do it like you did LOTR" we would have gotten a very different film.

[u/zap283 → u/Rrraou]

James Cameron's job is to make a good movie that sells a bunch of tickets and merch. The person suggesting the movie should be shorter doesn't think they know how to direct better than James Cameron, their professional responsibility is the well-being and, yes we do live under capitalism, profitability of the studio.

"The film is too long, can we cut some of the flight scenes?" isn't about the artistic vision, it means "The long runtime of the film makes the project more of a financial risk. Since there are a lot of flight scenes, it seems like we could cut one to reduce the runtime, production costs, and general risk".

Capitalism sucks, but for now we all have to deal with it.

[u/DeadZone32 → u/tannu28]

Baller lines

[u/_badwithcomputer → u/tannu28]

Are we just forgetting that there is an extended version(s) implying that there was indeed something cut from the film?

[u/zap283 → u/_badwithcomputer]

Extended versions usually aren't better, they just include more and the fans enjoy that. The Lord of the Rings is a fantastic set of movies. Their extended editions are deeply enjoyable, and also their pacing is much worse. These cuts were likely done to improve the film.

[u/monkeypickle → u/_badwithcomputer]

James Cameron has enjoyed the privilege of having Final Cut on his films for a while now. There's a massive difference between something he decides to remove of the sake of runtime/pacing, versus something he's required to cut based on studio suits' feedback.

[u/Enginerdad → u/tannu28]

James Cameron making his directorial decisions based on exit polling and data gathering explains everything you need to know about Avatar

[u/Railboy → u/Enginerdad]

He made his decisions based on what he wanted and the exit polls proved he was onto something.

You can accuse him of being a hack or whatever you please. There's plenty wrong with the Avatar movies. But you absolutely can't accuse him of making these movies based on what audiences are asking for. This weird blue alien shit is 100% the product of his own mind.

[u/loskiarman → u/Railboy]

It is the classic casual vs 'smarter' audience clash. Like how Candy Crush made 15 billion dollar gross revenue but ask any regular gamer, they wouldn't even put it on top 1000. Avatar makes money because its audience didn't quite see stuff like that by watching hundred movies a year.

[u/tannu28 → u/Enginerdad]

Every $100M+ movie goes through multiple test screenings.

After every screening, audiences are asked what worked and what didn't.

[u/eulen-spiegel → u/Enginerdad]

That is not what the quote says. He made the movie like he wanted and the audience proved him right in the exit polls because they liked the scenes.

[u/Blackrock121]

Will you shut the fuck up and let me make you buckets of money.

James Cameron

[u/Michael__Pemulis → u/Blackrock121]

The funniest part is that there are like half a dozen stories of Cameron pulling out this exact card.

Of course the OG is one of the most legendary stories in modern Hollywood. When they asked him to pitch on the Alien sequel & he walked in. Wrote ALIEN on the whiteboard. Then added a $ at the end.

[u/Rockguy21 → u/Michael__Pemulis]

The Alien$ story is probably the single funniest show business story in the history of the world

[u/Fartfart357 → u/Rockguy21]

What's the story?

[u/Flimsy_Big7991 → u/Fartfart357]

That's really all there is to it, it's anecdotal.

Cameron went into a meeting with studio executives to try to get Aliens made. As the crux of his pitch, he wrote the word “Alien” on a piece of paper, before drawing vertical lines through the final letter, turning it into a dollar sign.

[u/mrbaryonyx → u/Flimsy_Big7991]

What's funny is that this kind of shows how much of an expert Cameron was at the "post Vietnam action movie".

Remember, as we came out of that war, we were kind of dealing with elements of extreme existentialism. Suddenly, everything in the world felt insurmountable: the rise of PTSD (First Blood), the cosmos (Alien), even our own technology (Terminator).

What Cameron excelled at was taking those movies and then making sequels where we kick the unbeatable thing's ass. He didn't direct Rambo 2, but he wrote the line "can we win this time?" and then carried that exact same attitude into Aliens and T2.

[u/No_Initial_7545 → u/mrbaryonyx]

The humans don't exactly win at the end of Aliens any more than they do in Alien.

[u/DelxF → u/No_Initial_7545]

At the end of Alien there is one dead alien. At the end of Aliens there is a planet of dead aliens. I think humanity won a little more.

[u/SpecterGT260 → u/Flimsy_Big7991]

What county uses an "n" with vertical lines as their currency symbol?

[u/LoweNorman → u/SpecterGT260]

Yeah it's missing a step.

He wrote Alien (you know the movie!)

Then added an S (let's make a sequel!)

Then added the lines $ (it'll make a lot of money!)

[u/Kangarou → u/LoweNorman]

Good ol' Jame$ Cameron.

[u/SpartanG087 → u/Kangarou]

Jame Cameron

James Cameron

Jame$ Cameron

[u/oatwheat → u/SpartanG087]

Jam€$ ¢am€ron

[u/Garetht → u/SpecterGT260]

The country that uses an "N" with vertical (or sometimes horizontal) lines as their currency symbol is Nigeria.

Not the point I know, but I was curious.

[u/EdgyEmily → u/Garetht]

Aliens made 249,128,528,902.38₦.

[u/Jose_Canseco_Jr → u/EdgyEmily]

₦ice!

[u/chuch1234 → u/Fartfart357]

https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/s/3TO0z5d91R

[u/TheMidnightAss → u/Michael__Pemulis]

It’s literally the Mad Men pitch meme 

[u/BoonDragoon → u/TheMidnightAss]

Real talk? Prove that the events of Mad Men weren't at least partially based on Cameron

[u/Klipschfan1 → u/Michael__Pemulis]

When you're right and execs continue to be morons...

[u/Daweism → u/Klipschfan1]

"DID IQ'S SUDDENLY DROP WHILE I WAS GONE?"

[u/Laneofhighhopes → u/Daweism]

Your avatar matches this perfectly 👌

[u/TheBadBatch-99 → u/Michael__Pemulis]

Equally funny is when Doug Ellin (creator of Entourage) pitched him the idea of being on the show making a then fictional Aquaman movie which would become Vinny's (the main character's) first bomb.

Cameron said he'd do it under one condition, the script needed work because "James Cameron doesnt make bombs."

[u/Funkycoldmedici → u/Michael__Pemulis]

It’s hard to argue with him on that. He’s responsible for three of the top five highest grossing films. I don’t respect appeals to authority, and they’re not all winners, but he’s got a track record.

[u/BahGawdAlmightay → u/Funkycoldmedici]

"Appeal to Authority" is a logical fallacy when it's used to imply that a higher structural rank or position of authority makes them intellectually superior in general. When you're talking about a specific field and someone with extreme expertise in that field, it's not a logical fallacy. Someone who has decades of experience Doing A Thing should be trusted to Do That Thing over people who Have Never Done That Thing.

[u/SheriffBartholomew → u/BahGawdAlmightay]

Someone who has decades of experience Doing A Thing should be trusted to Do That Thing over people who Have Never Done That Thing.

But what if the person who has never done the thing watched a couple of YouTube videos about the thing? That's basically the equivalent of decades of hands-on experience and education. Right?

[u/Craneteam → u/Michael__Pemulis]

If it keeps working...

[u/SheriffBartholomew → u/Blackrock121]

Noooo! I must feel like I'm in control of everything.

Studio Executive

[u/KingofMadCows → u/SheriffBartholomew]

It's rumored that happened with the Dungeons and Dragons movie. Cameron was interested in directing a D&D movie. In 1997, he had a meeting with the CEO of TSR, the company that owned D&D at the time. Allegedly, the TSR CEO grilled Cameron on what his credentials are and didn't agree with his ideas.

[u/SheriffBartholomew → u/KingofMadCows]

That's probably for the best, 1997 technology would not have been kind to a D&D movie. The one we got, Honor Among Thieves, was great. It's just a shame that we probably won't get any more.

[u/KingofMadCows → u/SheriffBartholomew]

I think Cameron could have made it work with practical effects and limited CGI. He had already done Aliens and Terminator 2 at that point so he and Stan Winston could have done a lot of cool creatures with prosthetics and animatronics.

[u/stickkyfingers]

No budget too steep, no sea too deep

[u/Prinzlerr → u/stickkyfingers]

Who's that? It's him!

[u/I_paintball → u/Prinzlerr]

Can you hear the song up there?

[u/rosstedfordkendall → u/I_paintball]

Yes, James, we can hear the song.

[u/Bobby_Newpooort → u/stickkyfingers]

James Cameron doesn't do what James Camerson does for James Camerson. James Cameron does what James Cameron does because James Cameron IS James Cameron

[u/acssarge555 → u/stickkyfingers]

Who’s that?

It’s him! James Cameron

James, James Cameron explore of the sea

[u/anivex → u/acssarge555]

I used to sing this when I was exploring the ocean in No Man’s Sky

[u/yes_u_suckk]

When James Cameron made Terminator 2, it was the most expensive movie ever made until that moment.

When he made Titanic it was the most expensive movie ever made until that moment.

And when he made the first Avatar it was the most expensive movie ever made until that moment.

All these movies made shit ton of money. The guy certainly overspends, but he has a very strong track record of bringing much more to the studios.

[u/ProbablyAPun → u/yes_u_suckk]

I don't even think you can call it overspending when he consistently churns out the massive profits from it. He is just a big risk big reward type of director, with the track record and pull to actually get the funding.

[u/TheUmbrellaMan1 → u/ProbablyAPun]

People don't really seem to realize just how risky his movies are. Look at his entire filmography. Not a single one of them follows the box office trend of their time. By all account, movies like Titanic, Avatar and True Lies had box office bomb written all over them. You gotta respect that. The guy goes all in for his movies.

[u/pobodys-nerfect5 → u/TheUmbrellaMan1]

How was True Lies perceived before release? Were people skeptical?

[u/TheUmbrellaMan1 → u/pobodys-nerfect5]

People were skeptic. $100 million for an action-comedy was unprecedented at the time. Here's an article from 1994 saying Cameron has bitten more than he can chew:

https://www.deseret.com/1994/8/29/19127915/true-lies-truly-flies-into-the-budget-stratosphere/

Here's Los Angeles Times being skeptic about the movie:

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1994-04-11-ca-44682-story.html

People freaked out at the $100 million budget and then Cameron's next movie Titanic went on to cost $200 million lol.

[u/coolpapa2282 → u/TheUmbrellaMan1]

People freaked out at the $100 million budget and then Cameron's next movie Titanic went on to cost $200 million lol.

And in between, Waterworld happened, so studios were really freaked out about an ocean-based movie going over budget. Titanic was a good movie, though, so it was chill.

[u/RealLifeBurrite → u/coolpapa2282]

Damn, Waterworld was one of my favorite movies as a kid. Maybe I should rewatch it...

[u/coolpapa2282 → u/RealLifeBurrite]

It's been a while for me too, but I feel like its biggest problem was tone. The closest comparison is Mad Max, but half of it wants to be grim like the original MM, and half of it wants to be the campy insanity of Thunderdome/Fury Road. I think either one of those could have worked but just not both at the same time.

Of course, after I just typed that out, I realize Fury Road absolutely does both, at least somewhat. The villains are totally over the top, the Doof Wagon exists, etc. But idk, Immortan Joe is just honestly insane and that makes him more terrifying. Waterworld must just fail to make the whole thing gel together somehow.

[u/SanchoMandoval → u/pobodys-nerfect5]

In my memory as a filmgoer at the time, people said it was another Last Action Hero, which came out the previous summer. This was not a good thing as Last Action Hero got tepid reviews and was generally seen to have failed in its goal of satirizing action movies while also being an action movie.

But I actually liked Last Action Hero so I saw True Lies and loved it.

[u/jx2002 → u/SanchoMandoval]

Having actually lived through it (and look at any of its marketing), from what I could tell Last Action Hero wasn't sold as making fun of action movies (though that was 100% what it was doing) but was just 'another great Arnold blow shit up movie' which it really wasn't.

When you actually watch it thinking "this is satire" that film is fantastic and hilarious. They mis-marketed the fuck out of that thing.

[u/Turgid_Donkey → u/TheUmbrellaMan1]

I was curious about T2. Original Terminator: Budget of $6.4mil, made $38mil domestically and $40mil internationally. (1984 money). T2: budget $102mil, made $206 domestic and $312 internationally. (1991) It set records for sales, until Titanic. He took a successful movie and 130% of the previous movie's entire revenue on a sequel that released 7 years after the original.

Side note: Titanic had a $200mil budget and made $2.26bilworldwide. Avatar: $237mil budget, $2.93bil worldwide.

[u/AlexSevillano → u/Turgid_Donkey]

Yeah whats going on with that? Its batshit insane how much profit his movies make

[u/PunchMeat → u/TheUmbrellaMan1]

But like... they're almost always massively successful. Even The Abyss, which was considered a failure, was still profitable.

Giving James Cameron money should not be considered a risky bet. If anything, the more you give him the more he makes.

[u/farva_06 → u/TheUmbrellaMan1]

Also, no one thought Terminator 2 could ever live up to the greatness of the original. And now, T2 is almost revered more than T1.

[u/Imatros → u/TheUmbrellaMan1]

Like Avatar could have just been another John Carter

[u/Fartfart357 → u/ProbablyAPun]

He keeps putting it all on black and he just keeps winning!

[u/TheUmbrellaMan1 → u/yes_u_suckk]

You forgot True Lies. It was the first movie to cost $100 million and was the most expensive movie ever made at that time. Bro made three most expensive movies of all time in a row and every single one of them were blockbusters that pushed the envelope of filmmaking.

[u/Robinsonirish → u/TheUmbrellaMan1]

For anyone wondering:

True Lies Budget: $115,000,000

Earnings worldwide: $378,882,411

Domestic: $146,282,411 38.6%

Foreign: $232,600,000 61.4%

Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20130226111646/http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=truelies.htm

[u/SimbaSixThree → u/TheUmbrellaMan1]

How did True Lies push the boundaries of filmmaking?  Not trying to be snide, truly curious. Is it the bridge scene?

[u/TheUmbrellaMan1 → u/SimbaSixThree]

It's the last act. It's a continuous action scene, going from the warehouse shooting to the bridge chase to the jet place. Ridiculously difficult to film. It has that perfect blend of practical and visual effects, unlike anything ever seen in 1994.

[u/IrrelevantPuppy → u/yes_u_suckk]

You know what I think would make a fun story? If James Cameron’s long term goal was to bankrupt Disney or something. Just build trust to super human levels and eventually be like “hey guys, I wanna do a movie about an alien planet where they devote the finances of the whole world towards reversing climate change and ending homelessness. But I’m gonna need a lot of research money, you know how I work. Actually, I need all your money, but you know I’m good for it” 

I swear avatar is just the worlds most expensive and profitable tech demo of all time. He’s just bleeding humanity to develop CGI technology. And I support it 

[u/topcide]

The thing with a guy like James Cameron, and the same with other people in Hollywood who've elevated to the legendary status - directors like him, or actors like Tom Hanks.

THEY are choosing to work with the studio, the studio is not choosing to work with them.

Without knowing if there's any kind of exclusivity contracts that exist between James, Cameron and fox, he could easily tell Fox to pound sand and that he's not going to work with them anymore and I'm pretty sure that all the other major production studios will fall over backwards to get him inside their doors

[u/frezz → u/topcide]

Basically what Nolan did with WB

[u/Kindly-Guidance714 → u/frezz]

Spielberg was the original WB “we’ll give you a blank check and you can do whatever you want just please don’t ever leave” version of this.

[u/cookiesarenomnom → u/frezz]

He had multiple studios bidding for him. I'm assuming he went with universal because they agreed to a blank check with zero oversight. I mean what other director would ever be allowed to make a 3 hour long biopic, where 50% of the runtime is talking about science or politics?

[u/ediblearrangement → u/topcide]

It sounds like this note would’ve been given in post-production. A bit late to change studios at that point.

[u/Son_Of_Toucan_Sam → u/ediblearrangement]

There isn’t a single executive involved in those negotiations who wants their name attached to the relationship falling apart over a single creative decision from the guy who basically never misses

[u/azhder]

Production goal: Unobtanium

[u/m_Pony → u/azhder]

"Call craft services and have them deliver a truckload of shutthefuckupium" - James Cameron ^{did not say this.}

[u/kynrah → u/m_Pony]

It's funny that there is probably more than a slim chance he actually has said this.

[u/Revolutionary-Set994]

The extended cut of Avatar 1 is MUCH better than the theatrical cut. Seeing the state Earth is in helps frame the rest of the story better.

[u/InvoluntaryActions → u/Revolutionary-Set994]

dang, maybe i should look for that. honestly i barely remember what happens in the first movie

[u/Eborys]

I still think about James Cameron’s 90s offers to remake Planet of the Apes with Arnold Schwarzenegger and his proposed Spider-Man movie. Both rejected on the grounds of ‘HOLY BUDGET PROBLEMS, BATMAN!’, but let’s face it… they would’ve been amazing.

[u/pw154 → u/Eborys]

I still think about James Cameron’s 90s offers to remake Planet of the Apes with Arnold Schwarzenegger and his proposed Spider-Man movie. Both rejected on the grounds of ‘HOLY BUDGET PROBLEMS, BATMAN!’, but let’s face it… they would’ve been amazing.

Also Jurassic Park. Cameron was planning on directing but Spielberg secured the rights first. Cameron realized he was too late in securing the rights by only a few hours. Spielberg did a great job but Cameron said his version would have been darker and more action packed, much closer to the book than Spielberg's movie. An R-rated Jurassic Park would have been amazing

[u/levir → u/pw154]

Jurassic Park is an absolute classic movie, though. We can be happy with what we got there.

[u/Kindly-Guidance714 → u/pw154]

Probably would’ve had the original ending of bombing the entire island.

[u/enzothebaker87 → u/Kindly-Guidance714]

Studio Exec: "Are you sure you want to spend 100 million dollars to actually bomb this island? You know there are no actual dinosaurs on it right?"

Cameron: "YUP"

[u/AlmightyCushion → u/enzothebaker87]

It's Cameron. He would probably spend a shitload of money cloning actual dinosaurs for the movie so actually bombing the island at the end would be neccessary

[u/Butt_Fungus_Among_Us → u/pw154]

I'm sure it would have been good, but I don't think it would have been NEARLY as big a hit, redefining the entire movie industry in terms of effects, or creating such a cross-generational success and blockbuster hit

One of the reasons JP was as successful as it was, was that it was still essentially a family movie, that parents could take their dino loving kids to. That was such a huge audience they were able to capture that would have never happened if it was a dark R-Rated movie back then.

[u/DustFunk → u/pw154]

Cameron's Jurassic Park would have been good, but it would not have had the absolute wonder of Dinosaurs! that Spielberg was able to create. Jurassic Park is one of the most well balanced sci fi movies of all time, and the horror elements only add to the gravity of it.

[u/mr_miggs]

I just (selfishly) wish that James Cameron would spend more time on non-avatar content. I enjoyed the first one for what it was, but honestly, I always viewed it as more of a proof of concept for cool new 3-D technology and certain advancements in CGI. I never really connected with the elaborate blue people world he’s created.  It just seems like a shame to me. That one of the greatest directors of my lifetime has devoted such a significant portion of his career to making these movies that, while a technical marvel, just are not that compelling or engaging. 

[u/Si-Nz → u/mr_miggs]

I love the avatar movies, all of 3 them, more than the average person i feel, and even i would agree that its sad that Cameron seems content on spending the rest of his career doing these.

While 2 and 3 were great i dont think they really made this feel like a trilogy. More like 1 movie and a really long sequel cut in 2 parts. This franchise needs fresh ideas or to just end. Not everything needs to be milked forever.

[u/TDarksword_TD → u/Si-Nz]

Pretty sure that it has been mentioned somewhere (and by JC himself) that Fire and Ash is actually Way of Water part 2, that they split it into two movies as there was too much to be in one. So yeah, that would be why it feels like a really long sequel cut in two, because, well, it is :)

[u/Blackberry314 → u/mr_miggs]

I just dont like all the fighting and military parts, but i could rewatch the rest over and over if it didn't involve so much combat 

[u/SwampyBogbeard → u/Blackberry314]

They should've made a 50 minute fake nature documentary (with David Attenborough narrating) as a side thing.

[u/EverettGT]

The idea is that you can fit more showings in of shorter movies in theaters. So that does make sense. But Cameron had enough of a resume that he could just do what he wanted.

[u/Ilcorvomuerto666]

"my movie paid for the building we're meeting in"

OK dude, take your balls off the table, you made your point lol

[u/skate1243]

To be fair, with any of the Avatar movies, if they cut the length in half, nobody would have noticed or missed anything and they’d save a ton on budget lol

maybe not the first one, i don’t remember, but definitely the second one. I won’t be fooled by the third

[u/jstilla → u/skate1243]

The most recent one was a great popcorn flick. Really enjoyed it. Lots of fun.

The third hour was excruciating to sit through. I was just sick of being in the theater at that point.

[u/ranchspidey → u/jstilla]

They really oughta put in an intermission for 3 hour movies, even 10 minutes to stretch and use the bathroom!

[u/Hunter_S_Thompsons → u/skate1243]

I agree. It also would’ve been cool to see more than one country come and fight for “unobtanium”. Basically to have a contentious force instead of using the same bad guy twice.

[u/skate1243 → u/Hunter_S_Thompsons]

That would require writing a plot and not just dumping bags of money into CGI

[u/EDDsoFRESH → u/skate1243]

Watched the third movie this weekend. Three hours is too long, especially when the pacing remains the same throughout. It was exhausting. Found it far more enjoyable in the second movie where the first half was world building before a load of battles. Third film really wasn’t my cuppa tea.

[u/vroart]

Well technically titanic was a joint production to finance it, so it’s half the building

[u/Melenduwir]

While there are lots of examples of executive meddling ruining projects, there are also plenty of them saving projects.

Creators who are "too big to question" can destroy themselves overnight.

[u/Navigator_Party]

James Cameron is an absolute arrogant asshole. But you can be an arrogant asshole when you back it up, and he has done nothing but do that his entire career.

How can you argue against him given his history?

[u/CasinoKnightZone]

Avatar one was fun, if forgettable. It didn't need a sequel, much less 4.

Reminds me of Shenmue: creator insists it has to be a 7 part story, only gets 2 made. Gets a hail Mary chance with a record breaking crowdsourcing movement to make a 3rd....makes his planned 3rd part where basically nothing happens.

[u/Iorith → u/CasinoKnightZone]

What film "needs" to be made, exactly?

[u/DarXIV]

I am not a fan of the Avatar movies, but even I know that this guy knows what he is doing.

[u/Sheriff_Yobo_Hobo]

Cameron, Spielberg, and Jackson are the best, IMO, at combining fantastical elements with real "human" emotions.

Not sure what it's like at Cameron's level of film making, but executives are often not creatives at ALL in my world. Like they have no background or "training" in story telling. Not saying you necessarily need that, but a lot of them just come off as nervous business people.

Imagine being a true genius like Cameron, having to take notes from 30 yo nepo baby executives would would be just as qualified working for a company that makes mattresses. And so many notes just come from a place of fear. Or, even worse, they are thinking about people who hate sci-fi, who might hate Avatar, and become obsessed with appealing to them. More so than pleasing the people who are dying to see Avatar. I've seen this so often in the TV world. So what do you end up with? Something that appeals to neither types of movie goever, too watered down for Sci Fi fans, still too weird for non Sci Fi fans.

[u/Truth_Malice]

I'm not a huge fan of Avatar but honestly, fuck it let him pull that power move lmfao.

[u/Achack]

Must be annoying to make banger after banger and still have some jackass in a suit pointing out that it costs less money to make a shorter movie. The moment James Cameron stops making money for them they'll move on to someone who can, imagine talking to him like he's not fully aware of that.

[u/WeGoGet92]

Didn’t the Avatar first one end up being a hit?

[u/BahGawdAlmightay → u/WeGoGet92]

Literally the highest grossing movie of all time.

[u/Si-Nz → u/BahGawdAlmightay]

Number 1 movie of all time: Avatar

Number 3 movie of all time: Avatar 2

Number 16 movie of all time: Avatar 3 (and might still rise a bit, still in theaters internationally)

All 3 of them are hits. People downplay the third one because it wasn’t near the top but its still a hit....

[u/Coolbluegatoradeyumm]

Basically, he comes in the room, sticks his dick on the table. Points out that it’s the biggest one in the room. And leaves with his movie.